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Cookie Notice Boyle, Bradley, Campbell, Cannon, Coleman, Connor, Devlin, Doherty, Donnell, His father, Eochaid Muig Medon, son of Muiredeach, became Ard Rich mid way of the fourth century. People move. Press J to jump to the feed. Keating, quoting a Latin Life of Saint Patrick, says that Niall led Irish raids on Roman Britain, and in one of those raids Patrick and his sisters were abducted. According to one version of the story, Niall took hostages from the five provinces of Ireland (Ulster, Connacht, Leinster, Munster, and Meath), from the Scots, the Saxons, the Britons, and the Franks. We would expect to find a large concentration of Niall's descendants there, as the Southern U Nill were dominant in that region, but we do not. Mongfind, purporting to make peace between her brother and her sons, holds a feast, at which she serves Crimthann a poisoned drink. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. If Patrick was not this person, he would have lived shortly thereafter. Hughes says "Niall himself must have died not before the middle of the fifth century". Niall is placed in the traditional list of High Kings of Ireland. A second, She grants Niall not only water but her name, Alexi, and the kingship for many generations twenty-six of his descendants will be High Kings of Ireland. Based on U Nill genealogies and the dates given for his supposed sons and grandsons, modern historians believe he is likely to have lived some 50 years later than the traditional dates, dying circa 450.[4]. Abruptly, the tale then has Niall appearing before an assembly of Pictish bards in Scotland, where he is killed by an arrow shot by Eochaid from the other side of the valley. least 12 sons. the first high king of Ireland. Lastly, is it more likely British or Irish? signature is created. The Annals of the Four Masters dates his accession to 378 and death to 405. 390-460). I am not sure if his father Eochy Moyvone is the same person as shown im other sources namely Echu Mugmedn, so I have shown both. Tom Peete Cross & Clark Harris Slover (eds.). Their father, who was looking on (and who, say some, designedly caused the fire, to test his sons), observed with interest Neill's distinctiveness of character, his good sense and good judgment. Over the generations, a genetic He makes war and destroys the poet's stronghold, killing his son Leat[11] (Keating has it that Laidchenn was a druid, and that Eochaid killed his son after he used defamatory language towards him). modern parlance, he put it about. Mongfind, purporting to make peace between her brother and her sons, holds a feast, at which she serves Crimthann a poisoned drink. [14] nna's son Eochaid is named as Niall's killer in all sources, although the circumstances vary. [2] A poem by the 11th-century poet Cined Ua Hartacin in the Book of Leinster credits Niall with seven raids on Britain, on the last of which he was killed by Eochaid "above the surf of the Ictian Sea";[2][13] a poem attributed to the same poet in Lebor na hUidre credits him with going to the Alps seven times. In the highly patriarchal society of medieval Ireland, their status allowed them to have outsized numbers of children and spread their paternal lineage each generation. Each brother in turn goes looking for water, and finds a well guarded by a hideous hag who demands a kiss in return for water. His men carry his body home, fighting seven battles on the way, and his foster-father Torna dies of grief. SidmartinBio", "The Adventures of the Sons of Eochaid Mugmedon", "The Death of Niall of the Nine Hostages", "Show Somerled People | Clan Donald USA, Inc", The genetic imprint of Niall of the Nine Hostages, "If Irish Claim Nobility, Science May Approve", National Center for Biotechnology Information, A Social History of Ancient Ireland, Vol. Niall Nogallach (Irish pronunciation: [%CB%88ni%CB%90%C9%99l noilx], Old Irish "having nine hostages"),[1] or in English, Niall of the Nine Hostages, was a prehistoric Irish king, the ancestor of the U Nill family that dominated Ireland from the 6th to the 10th century. Another test was provided by the Stone of Fl, which screamed when it was touched by the rightful heir. His reign dated to the late 4th and early 5th centuries. fingerprint of Niall of the Nine Hostages in the y-DNA of one in five men His body is said to have been buried at Ochann, now known as Faughan Hill in County Meath. Variations of this story are told of the earlier Irish high king Lugaid Logde, in Arthurian legendone of the most famous versions appears in both Geoffrey Chaucer's The Wife of Bath's Tale and the related Gawain romance, The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelleand in John Gower's Middle English poem Confessio Amantis. My original information was obtained from Genealogy information held at University of Hull. Niall exiles him to Scotland. Niall and his dynasty. [6] O'Rahilly suggests that the nine hostages were from the kingdom of the Airgialla (literally "hostage-givers"), a satellite state founded by the Ui Nill's conquests in Ulster, noting that the early Irish legal text Lebor na gCeart ("The Book of Rights") says that the only duty of the Airgialla to the King of Ireland was to give him nine hostages.[7]. Abruptly, the tale then has Niall appearing before an assembly of Pictish bards in Scotland, where he is killed by an arrow shot by Eochaid from the other side of the valley. He formed an alliance with the Scots and Picts and sent ships to plunder England, Scotland, Wales, and France. [4]:7678[8]:220 Niall is placed in the traditional list of High Kings of Ireland. [4 ] A poem by the 11th century poet Cined Ua Hartacin in the Book of Leinster credits Niall with seven raids on Britain, on the last of which he was killed by Eochaid "above the surf of the Ictian Sea";[4 ][1 2] a poem attributed to the same poet in Lebor na hUidre credits him with going to the Alps seven times. Maternal lines are inherited through mitochondrial DNA both women and men have mitochondrial DNA, but its only the mothers mitochondrial DNA that is passed on to a child. [9 ], While Niall is high king, his brothers establish themselves as local kings. The geneticists estimated that about 23 million men bear this haplotype. [3]:70, T. F. O'Rahilly argues that Niall and his sons were responsible for the breakup of the ancient kingdom of Ulster and the creation of the kingdoms of Tr Chonaill and Tr Eoghain, and the satellite kingdom of the Airgalla. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Niall is presumed, on the basis of the importance of his sons and grandsons, to have been a historical person, [2] :70 but the early Irish annals say little about him. Although these studies are not coordinated with each other and are ongoing, it is already apparent that not all of these lineages are related to each other within Niall's timeframe. But claiming that you're descended from Niall of the Nine Hostages is BS, because even if it were true, there is no proof. men who can trace their ancestry to Ireland, and especially the north of A study conducted at Trinity College, Dublin, found that a striking percentage of men in Ireland (and quite a few in Scotland) share the same Y chromosome. They're the Garza clan of Lepe, Spain. Only Niall kisses her properly, and she is revealed as a beautiful maiden, the Sovereignty of Ireland. Trinity College study, nor do the researchers conclude that he ever existed. Niall's accession to the throne possibly took place around 379AD. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Moore et al. 279. r/23andme. "Tara is a prehistoric burial site in County Meath, famed as the legendary capital of the high kings of Ireland, and a holy site for thousands of years. [9] He is succeeded by his nephew Nath . Byrne suggests that Niall's death took place during a raid on Roman Britain. He then kills Laidchenn by throwing a stone which lodges in his forehead. Niall Nogallach (Old Irish "having nine hostages") (pronounced [ni%CB%90%CB%88%C9%99l nojilax])[1], or in English, Niall of the Nine Hostages, son of Eochaid Mugmedn, was an Irish king, the eponymous ancestor of the U Nill kindred who dominated Ireland from the 6th century to the 10th century. Sign up to IrishCentral's newsletter to stay up-to-date with everything Irish! Moore, Laoise T., Brian McEvoy, Eleanor Cape, Katharine Simms and Daniel G. Bradley, O'Grady, Standish H. (ed. Oh, got it. The southern Venii came to be known as the Eoghanacht, while another group of them migrated north and formed a new kingdom west of the River Shannon where they became known as the Connachta after a revered leader named Conn. Professor Dith hgin seems to indicate that Niall was likely a descendant of the Gaulish seafaring tribe of the Veneti, who originated in south-east Armorica (modern Brittany, France). [9] He is succeeded by his nephew Nath . Byrne suggests that Niall's death took place during a raid on Roman Britain. The rise of the U Nill dynasties and their conquests in Ulster and Leinster are not reliably recorded but have been the subject of considerable study and attempts to reconstruct them. What is a maternal line? The geneticists estimated that there are about 2-3 million males alive today who descend in the male-line from Niall. In 405 he led an expedition against Britain, where it is rumored that he may have captured a young Romano-British boy named Patricus, son of Calpurnius, a local magistrate. The M222 pattern is a lot rarer in the south of the island. [13], In January 2006, geneticists at Trinity College, Dublin suggested that Niall may have been the most fecund male in Irish history. She will [5], This "loathly lady" motif appears in myth and folklore throughout the world. This was expected of someone of his status in a polygamous society where all geneticists collected a number of samples from men across Ireland. and probably less reliable, story is that Niall took a hostage from each of I'm of Mexican decent with 0% of Irish showing up in my results; how did I get a common ancestor with Niall of the Nine Hostages? Receive the latest from your DNA community. According to legend, Niall led one of the most powerful and enduring Irish kingdoms and it has been suggested that because of high rates of Irish emigration to North America and other parts of the world, up to two or three million men descend from Niall! Irish men would've been barred from British Military service at the time due to their religion. The High Kingship did not become a reality until the 9th century, and Niall's legendary status has been inflated in line with the political importance of the dynasty he founded. A dated phylogenetic tree of M222 SNP haplotypes: exploring the DNA of Irish and Scottish surnames and possible ties to Niall and the U Nill kindred, Last edited on 17 February 2023, at 06:56, Learn how and when to remove this template message, The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle, "Was Niall of the Nine Hostages a real person? The maternal DNA results showed greater genetic diversity than the paternal, including lineages that dated back to some of the islands earliest settlers, and some others that arrived more recently, ie: the Vikings. Often this information is passed down through family stories, for instance, my mother claims to be a quarter Irish and so Im apparently one-eighth Irish. Brin defeats Fiachrae and hands him over as a prisoner to Niall, but Fiachrae's son Nath continues the war and eventually kills Brin. [3] However, the traditional roll of kings and its chronology is now recognised as artificial. She gives birth as she is drawing water, but out of fear of Mongfind, she leaves the child on the ground, exposed to the birds. [5] The later Annals of the Four Masters dates his reign to 379405,[6] and the chronology of Geoffrey Keating's Foras Feasa ar irinn to 368395. Niall is placed in the traditional list of High Kings of Ireland. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Fiachrae is granted a minor royal line two of his descendants, Nath and Ailill Molt, will be High Kings. [14], Early in 2006, geneticists at Trinity College, Dublin suggested that Niall may have been the most fecund male in Irish history. I'm stuck at R-P311 and 23andme gives Niall of the Nine Hostages which is flat out DUMB. 23andme specifies it as R-M269 and says "You share a paternal-line ancestor with Niall of the Nine Hostages". I was just wandering because it said most Irish have the common ancestor as well. Brin defeats Fiachrae and hands him over as a prisoner to Niall, but Fiachrae's son Nath continues the war and eventually kills Brin. I got that same badge in my 23andme YDNA report. [4] The later Annals of the Four Masters dates his reign to 379405,[5] and the chronology of Geoffrey Keating's Foras Feasa ar irinn to 368395. Perhaps more myth than man, Niall of the Nine Hostages is said to have been a King of Tara in northwestern Ireland in the late 4th century C.E. After this, Tara's importance appears to have declined.". bronze slippers. The High Kingship did not become a reality until the 9th century, and Niall's legendary status has been inflated in line with the political importance of the dynasty he founded. McEvoy states: "As in other polygynous societies, the siring of offspring was related to power and prestige." Some of Niall makes war in Europe as far as the Alps, and the Romans send an ambassador to parlay with him. The saga "The Death of Niall of the Nine Hostages" says that he received five hostages from the five provinces of Ireland (Ulster, Connacht,Leinster, Munster and Meath), and one each from Scotland, the Saxons, the Britons and the Franks. We've all technically got "common ancestor" with Niall because we've all got a common paternal ancestor. Keating, quoting a Latin Life of Saint Patrick, says that Niall led Irish raids on Roman Britain, and in one of those raids Patrick and his sisters were abducted. Confirm your suspicions or surprise yourself with a DNA test DNA - It's something so personal and integral to who you are and where you come from, but often it remains a total mystery. In it, Eochaid Mugmedn, the High King of Ireland, has five sons, four, Brin, Ailill, Fiachrae and Fergus, by his first wife Mongfind, sister of the king of Munster, Crimthann mac Fidaig, and a fifth, Niall, by his second wife Cairenn Chasdub, daughter of Sachell Balb, king of the Saxons. He carried back hostages, many captives, and great booty from these expeditions. [19], Following a 2006 hypothesis by Moore et al. The are Munster, Leinster, Connacht, Ulster, the Britons, Picts, Saxons, and Morini of Gaul. [7], This "loathly lady" motif appears in myth and folklore throughout the world. 76-78[6]:p. 220, Niall is placed in the traditional list of High Kings of Ireland. The Annals of Inisfallen date his death before 382, and the Chronicon Scotorum to 411. No, if he's M222, his paternal line almost certainly came to Italy from Ireland and/or Britain. However, the genetic evidence of the study does seem to show that the Seeing Niall's popularity among the nobles, Mongfind demands that Eochaid name a successor, hoping it will be one of her sons. The rise of the U Nill dynasties and their conquests in Ulster and Leinster are not reliably recorded and have been the subject of considerable study and attempts to reconstruct them. The boy eventually escaped, but returned to Ireland as St. Patrick. My father was born in Hungary, how common is this haplogroup for those with eastern european ancestry? Niall, She grants Niall not only water but the kingship for many generationstwenty-six of his descendants will be High Kings of Ireland. You absolutely do not understand. [3] These sons are the eponymous ancestors of the various U Nill dynasties: Egan of the Cenl nEgain and Conall Gulban of the Cenl Conaill, making up the northern U Nill; Fiachu of the Cenl Fiachach dynasty, Legaire (the king who Saint Patrick is said to have converted) of the Cenl Legaire, Maine of the U Maine, Egan of the Cenl nEgain, Conall Gulban of the Cenl Conaill, Conall Cremthainne of the Clann Cholmin and the Sl nedo Sline, and Coirpre of the Cenl Coirpri, making up the southern U Nill. She grants Niall not only water but the kingship for many generations - twenty-six of his descendants will be High Kings of Ireland. Keating associates these raids with those mentioned by Gildas and Bede, and deduces that, since some Irish sources say Patrick was abducted from Brittany, that Niall's raids must have extended to continental Europe as well.[3]. The earliest version of the Lebor Gabla says Eochaid killed him on the English Channel, later versions adding that Niall was invading Brittany when this happened. We studied if there was any association between those surnames and the genetic profile. Niall of the Nine Hostages received his name from the taking of hostages as a strategy for playing mental havoc upon his opponent chieftains. Perhaps more myth than man, Niall of the Nine Hostages is said to have been a King of Tara in northwestern Ireland in the late 4th century C.E. His people were Celts who had escaped domination by the Romans by fleeing north and west. Sithchenn takes the brothers to the smith, who makes them weapons, and sends them out hunting. Ireland, carry a specific Y-DNA pattern called the M222 sub-clade. II, The History of Ireland by Geoffrey Keating, "The Laud Genealogies and Tribal Histories", "A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland. [3] The later Annals of the Four Masters dates his reign to 379-405, [4] and the chronology . The same area of Ireland has previously been the subject of anthropological studyand has shown a strikingly high percentage of men from Haplogroup R1b (98%) versus 90% in southeast Ireland. [21] However, geneticists today do not believe that the haplotype presented in the Moore paper represents descent from Niall of the Nine Hostages as Niall, being possibly mythical, does not have verifiable remains that can be tested. Discord: https://discord.gg/3Jjc3GdmtB, Press J to jump to the feed. Because of that, the identification of M222 with Niall's descendants is "difficult to justify". In Irish Kings and High Kings (Dublin, 1973), John Francis Byrne prefers a much earlier date for Niall's death and also suggests the Three Collas never existed. [9], In another story, the succession is not settled when Eochaid dies, and Mongfind's brother Crimthann takes the high kingship. His men carry his body home, fighting seven battles on the way, and his foster-father Torna dies of grief. Daddy of Ireland: The Or is it just bs from 23andMe? the guts to give her a small kiss, for which she grants him sight of Tara and [22][23] According to the PBS documentary series Finding Your Roots, Bill O'Reilly, Stephen Colbert, Colin Quinn, Bill Maher, and the show's host, Henry Louis Gates Jr. all display STR markers consistent with the Irish Modal Haplotype. [8], In another story, the succession is not settled when Eochaid dies, and Mongfind's brother Crimthann takes the High Kingship. [11] Another version has Mongfind try to poison Niall, but she takes the poison herself by mistake. A complete list will be found at Ard Rthe na hireann / High Kings of Ireland A list of the early Kings is in Adam through Kings of Ireland and Scotland To English Lines A list of the High Kings of Ireland after Niall Nogillach of the Nine Hostages will be found in the Periphery of Francia (See also Adam through Kings of Ireland and Scotland To English Lines and Irish Genealogy To trace the descent from Heremon, the son of Mil, go to The Sons of Mil on the Early Family web site. Sometime after 379 (when he became king of Ulster), he forced the other kings of Ireland to accept him as overlord when his sons Eoghan and Conal (possibly others as well) overthrew the Ulidian kingdom in the north. https://reddit.app.link/S7mCRh4DeR I think you're probably right about the Northern Spain theory. This group is for anyone. stories say that the future St Patrick was among hostages taken from one such The association with Niall is based on an outdated study that noted many M222 men have surnames that supposedly come from Niall or his descendants. The Munstermen renew the battle, capture Ailill and cut him to pieces, and war continues between Munster and Connacht for many years. mutations (changes) occur infrequently but, when they do, they help to In Irish tradition had forgotten that the Romans once ruled Britain, and relocated his remembered confrontations with the Empire to continental Europe, with Alba, the ancient name for Britain, being confused with Elpa, the Alps, or being understood with its later meaning of Scotland.