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So he is looking to become partner this year on the team's work. This is an opportunity to really do great work and innovate - learn to do your best work in the face of adversity and limited budgets and you will most likely to do well. You can switch jobs internally and get leveled up (typically 6-12 months after) - but make sure you have the conversation with the manager as to what is the expected level and what is the cap. We've negotiated thousands of offers and regularly achieve $30k+ (sometimes $300k+) increases. Think about it. Granted, you have to live in the greater NYC area, but it's a great place to be. Some are good at all. I saw several far more technically skilled people in the group who deserved this that were passed over. If you can make the argument about the job - and you're in a position of strength, obviously harder now than in years past, you can make the case. Its nice to see constructive advice and stories from everyone.I'm in the 61 bucket and currently struggling with my team for many months. Get FREE domain for 1st year and build your brand new site. Key member of the senior management team contributing to the formulation of the company's future direction and supporting tactical initiatives Drive the annual budget process, monthly. Levels.fyi gives different levels for Microsoft v amazon depending on pm or dev. But if you think you should be promoted and your manager doesn't, you shouldn't sit and seethe -- you must understand what it will take. Then L64 took two years. Maybe." It can help you identify blind spots which may be holding you back.7. When (if) you are then promoted to 62, you are not expected to continue performing at a level 62 level, but rather a level 63 level.The reason that you have to perform at a new level before reaching it is to avoid the Peter Principle, being people promoted up to their level of incompetence. Also, never ascribe to malfeasance what may simply be due to incompetence. Stop thinking of your Mgr as your adversary and listen to what they are telling you. more often than not it is up to the employee to use the resources, show maturity and commonsense and move up62 -> 63 is difficult and there is a reason behind it. But good leadership at the top can make visibility a positive thing for the person getting it and for the org who sees the person getting it. Of course not. As long as that's the case, I doubt anything would change.The method that this is done is troubling also. i asked him if he knew the absolute most important thing for him to do to get promoted. No one is born an experienced mgr and even the most experienced mgrs are not perfect. Most organizations will do promo/slate through a consensus/stack rank process. The current distribution is simply pathetic.. Those teams I used to despise as a L60, and only tolerate as a 63? That figures. According to Glassdoor, senior software engineers at Google can earn $172,818 as their average base pay, along with average cash bonuses of $30,921, stock bonuses of $104,769, and some other cash incentives for a total of $201,000. Not so at L63. Don't be the roadblock. You can work hard and grind it out. Ah, dude, my boss is in the way of my promotion. You have the right stuff to succeed and Microsoft is very happy with you. However L64 takes some time and L65 is very difficult. By then I had already already set up several clients as in independent consultant, so I declined to stay. Know what is going to make your product succeed, know what is going to make your team succeed, know what part of that you can achieve. Success breeds Success: I remember reading an article about an extensive study to determine the best predictor of a stocks price tomorrow. SAP, Go to company page Levels 57 and 58 are reserved for non-permanent employees and Levels 59 and 60 are reserved for New Graduates. I am not saying the manager is trying to sabotage, but when push comes to shove will you get the impactful project. But more likely youre displaying the hallmark of a weak performer described in the article of the same name (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/01/18/MN73840.DTL). There are definitely projects you can work on with your manager to increase your visibility, but if things don't happen right away just keep at it.Your manager should be able to give you fairly specific feedback on where you stand in your skip-level's eyes. Just like a lot of folks have a fetish to be managers even when it is against their natures.Having said this, consider which is better: a) Rushing through the levels and to be stuck in 64 for ages (to be Kim'd is especially painful here) - think Sarah Palin orb) Going through the levels at a healthy pace, getting far deep into the salary ranges that will assure higher pay when the new levels come. I've seen some extremely senior developers propose solutions to problems, but be totally unconvincing. 6 years ago I developed what I have been supporting since. If that means doing something you don't want to do, you might need a different manager (or company). Really inspiring. Vendors are also having it bad. If you have your mnanager in your pocket, you cna achieve greate heights in life. Oldest and (still) best advice I've gotten is move around a lot; no two teams' cultures or needs are the same, so you have something to offer wherever you look. I also agree with the requests to have a discussion related to 65+.Anyway, I have seen a very healthy discussion going on here, and most of the thoughts I wanted to share have been mentioned. This slighlty contradicts some of the other posts. I knew it backwards and forwards, better than anyone else does now or ever will. Highly effective Finance leadership; ability to deliver results by leading through example while setting high personal standards; Partnering with the business and influencing . Learn How to State Your Case and Earn Your Raise, Climb the Ladder With These Proven Promotion Tips, A Guide to Negotiating the Salary You Deserve, How to Prepare for Your Interview and Land the Job. One of my august colleges uses the analogy of a trapeze artist. Mini, as good as your writeup is, there is too much emphasis on this level promo business in MS, and I have seen my fair share of people that have been burnt by it. and is willing to take a chance on someone whose interview indicates they are ready for next level. We are all flawed, and you are lucky if people are telling you something that you can do something about. You should be on the same side. Add your salary anonymously in less than 60 seconds and continue exploring all the data. For example, see http://www.intropsych.com/ch07_cognition/learning_curve.html. So here's my 2 cents:Read this now and have a game plan for your 1:1s to tee up a deeper discussion at MYCD. I wasn't sure I was going to get out of a couple of those situations but after everyone of them, I was stronger and smarter.Take the challenge and go after tough problems. Join the Levels.fyi community to chat with employees at Microsoft and other tech companies. Over 20 years of experience in professional services including, architecture, corporate real estate, and integrated facility management, operating at a global and regional level. A Principal-level employee at Microsoft is someone who drives strategic efforts in their area of expertise. First, they are moving *to* something that they think fits them better -- and bringing an enthusiasm for the new position to go with the better fit. If you're going into that comfort zone of complaining about politics and butt-kissing and favorites, do me this favor: hold your right palm up, nice and flat like you're about to be sworn in to testify in a trial, and now extend your right arm out nice and wide, and then quickly swing your right arm around the front of you in a nice arc that ends with the flat of your right hand quickly connecting to the left side of your face for a hard, resounding slap. If youre working individually there is an upper limit on how much you can accomplish since there are only 24 hours in a day some of which must be devoted to eating, sleeping, and other bodily functions. Strong operations professional with a Master's Degree focused in Project Management from Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto . My work affected hundreds of developers in our org. .css-1uhsr4o{margin-right:8px;}Get Paid, Not Played. They will have thought this out. So, focusing on the customer instead of the competition is "incoherent blithering?" Obviously, this is advice that you may not apply during the current hiring freeze, but keep it on your mind for the future.- At times the focus on the level may not be the most important strategy in the long term. * Sell yourself: I know it sounds odd and contradictory. For example, some are principal individual contributors that just stayed for too long in a group and became essential, but now want to move on and cannot do that, either because their skills are obsolete or because they simply cannot go to a new startup team at such high level without any management responsibility, and they are untested managers. I'm currently level 66 and started at level 59 (equivalent in old levels) 12 years ago. The job is the same, just the levelling differs. Unless you're an asshat, in which case see mini's comment about slapping yourself around and listening to what other's think about you.And in those huge orgs with all the noise it is really easy for folks to rest and *ahem* vest, so you are overlooked by default.The key as mini and others have stated is finding the tech and team you love and everything flows from there (because you will be so excited you will go home and work another 4 hours every night examining customer feedback, competitive products, etc. Any idea on when is this going to change? Its a bit like the famous phrase about the definition of obscenity. Eng, Go to company page Here is my question, I don't trust that my manager will fight for me to get me to 63 for the following reasons:- The area I own is not big enough for a 63 but at the same time there is not other areas he can give to me given where we are as a team without taking away from my peers, something he would not want to do unless there is a big problem with a peer not delivering which is not the case.- Innovation - this leaves me with trying to come up with other areas that the team can focus on in addition to current goals to leap frog us and which I can own; so far even though some of my ideas are really good (according to the mgr) the timing is off (ie the team has not reached that level yet where my ideas would be practical to implement given the big ROI)In short I can't trust that this mgr will get me to 63 in a time frame that I would like to see it happen (provided that I nail the qualities you highlight for a 63) which leaves me with the following choices:-Sticking around and continue working on displaying 63 qualities until the above points change, and who knows how long that will take- leave for another team internally (which means a bit of time to establish myself again etc) but at the same it would give me more clear timeline of when I can say I am 100% delivering as a 63.-get external offers (eg from Google), bring it up with the mgr and thereby force a change (more responsibility) since leaving would hurt the team in at least the short term. You don't get your money by snatching it out of Google or Apple's hands, you get it by convincing your customers to hand it to you.Do you want to know why Vista is such an unmitigated disaster? . But power plays are at work and I get smacked when I try and take on extra work.So my question to the more experienced is this - how does one get the attention of management when they are focused on their own problems, their favorite underlings (of which I am not one), and when there is not enough work to go around?"1. Great post Mini. You're selling it in no less than eight different SKUs, (including the upgrades) and your marketing message is deliberately obfuscated to convince the customers to go for the most expensive one. But power plays are at work and I get smacked when I try and take on extra work.So my question to the more experienced is this - how does one get the attention of management when they are focused on their own problems, their favorite underlings (of which I am not one), and when there is not enough work to go around? Think Locally: remember three years back when we talked about the book Corporate Confidential? Directors are usually senior principals (level 66, 67) or at Partner level. Your commitments should already provide you with milestones to set as your goals. "Now that the Annual review is approaching"You're probably too late already. Advice from anyone at Microsoft for 10+ years is great to hear, but hard to follow. Microsoft Software Engineering Manager salary levels ranges from 63 (SDE Lead) upto 80 (Corporate VP), with 80 (Corporate VP) level earning average salary of $4851k along with $3675k worth of stock options. Expect my salary to go up after the cleanup. I heard that promotion budgets are significantly reduced at below 65 level. They are trying to get attention from upper levels more harder then you. Right now I am 56. Salesmanship is extremely important. Only one can emerge, and not everyone can be a senior simultaneously. I joined Microsoft at L63 in Office and found it to be a freakshow of people NOT working together but understanding that no team work was better for getting a promotion FAR better than I did having come from the Valley. Furthermore, after reaching a plateua in order to get to the next level of development there is usually a dip in the current performance as the learner starts temporarily letting go of some of the skills they have mastered in order to experiment and try new things. Do a brownbag for your VP level group, record it and send out the link to everyone. Risk and return are related. 3. When your manager finally ask you to do X, you'll be nodding your head and saying, "yeah, totally, and here's my progress on X." Titles are important, and dont let anyone make you believe otherwise. At L63 you should be directing v-teams, serving as a lead or possibly even having direct reports. Let's Hear it for the Boy! You want to be more efficient, smarter than him. L68 would not be referred to as Director. Ive seen many people who didnt quite fit at MS go off and be very successful at other companies, starting their own biz, changing careers, by finding a better fit for themselves. It's not easy. Especially since the days of job title/level transparency.People should not forget that many times, higher levels do not equal higher pay. kc. My management tells me that this is normal and 2 years is "aggressive", but this is getting frustrating for me. Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. There's a need to ooze authority in a way that is comforting to the person above you responsible for your career. Leadership: pro-active leadership that convinces team members of the future direction and even helps to . "You might be too smart or have ideas that come from somewhere outside of Redmond which makes you very dangerous and not Microsoft material. Contributed and exceeded in two roles - getting G-Star, then moved to another team with clear headroom and again, exceeded all commits and moved to L64. It's a $1,000-per-minute conversation - you should always have those. Great post and comments. When she finally left the company four years ago things improved greatly. How long do people usually sit at L62 in MCS? This is obviously difficult to manage. I work in MSN and we still have no way to know the levels of our peers. Chief Executive Officer and Director. I've changed jobs but came back to the group that's been the most supportive. Show me you can do this and want to learn more and you'll be on my radar as a possibility.6. I'm now off the meds, not seeing the psychiatrist, and living happily.Working at MS was both the best time in my life and the worst time. Most are management types whose only skill is sucking up. I was always righteously indignant when I encountered asshats and incompetence and I would rail against the losers to anyone who would listen, and then I would do whatever it took to drive my agenda through to completion.I focused 100% on producing vast quantities of superior quality work -- which endeared me to my management chain and opened up a crap-ton of doors at those early levels. How do you ensure there is no conflict of interest. The important thing though is, can you hold things in a room full of other Senior team members. They don't get defensive if their ideas are revealed to have flaws but rather delight in being able to move to a better solution. I think there's only one thing I would add, from the perspective of having been promoted from L59 to L64 in a 6-year period in one org (I left MS in 2006).Sometimes things within an org will turn to complete crap, and either there's not an option to leave or you may not want to. Typically if you can accomplish only 5 such improvements, it would be hard for your manager not to consider you for next step. Turn (it) Around, Bright Eyes: every now and then I get a little bit thrilled when someone joins the team straight out of school (or with a little industry experience) and after a few months it's obvious that Microsoft is the best company for them. The person who puts you up for promotion and has promotion conversations with your skip level. Here's how to find it. If you go looking for those problems though, you better be prepared to deliver. Then you're on the path to higher levels. There are the clear execptions and I think you can see this more on the engineering side than sales and marketing.One other piece of advice - be mindful of the impression you make on your bosses peers and others in senior levels of the organizations. Often this is where a perceived negative attitude or lack of soft skills will hurt you the most.Your immediate boss can often look beyond that to the benefit you bring to the organization - mostly because it also directly benefits him or her. I spent 5 years on level 61. "We have a stable and relatively easy job, and as long as we achieve, we will not get fired." It's also a well-known fact that there is a disparity in levels between Office and now Sinofsky's Windows and the rest of the company, especially below 65 level.Can anyone elaborate on that? Pop quiz: who is it? It's also a well-known fact that there is a disparity in levels between Office and now Sinofsky's Windows and the rest of the company, especially below 65 level.About asking your manager and getting their feedback, we're assuming that managers are capable of giving candid feedback. I know there is always new hope that comes with new leadership, but there is also a restart too. Hired at L58 in 2000 - Currently L62 and the last 2 promos were at 18mo intervals. I'm just going to try and emphasize a few points here:* As mentioned by many folks, it is important to own your career and hence plan you promotion, discuss it with your manager, and most importantly follow up on it. PROFESSIONAL SKILLS & HIGHLIGHTS OF QUALIFICATIONS Over 20+ years of experience working in large-scale real-time corporate environments Able to communicate concepts and details to clients, development team and testing team Excellent organization and communication skills, both written and verbal: clear and concise Knowledge of computer development software across multiple platforms . Up or out as they say.I found a niche I was happy in. I will mis-direct and confuse you with hearsay. As a member of the Microsoft UK Senior Leadership Team, Olaf leads Microsoft's retail and consumer goods . Know when your market worth changes with our verified salaries newsletter, See exactly how much your competitors pay. You can wait 24 months to gain all the credibilty & visibilty & trust again that needs to intersect precisely with your new leaderships ability to argue you on the stack proficiently.