But they dont work unless everybody actually sticks to them faithfully without exception, Collinssaid. I fully understand the depression and near paralysis that comes after leaving a cult. Whatever is going through Marks head, he is bent on getting people to listen to him again and to be heard. Whats the worst import/export that youve seen? It is possible for someone who is engaged in homosexual behavior to stop.". "In other words, you can believe what you want within the confines of the four walls of the church as long as you don't live it outside of the church.". Did you miss a tithe payment? Is this similar to Radical Chic? Its more the non-complementarian position to argue that women should be allowed to preach/lead based on gifting and that sounds like the argument Driscoll is raising in the quotes by him I placed in this post. There are some Calvinists who go in the opposite direction and are very humbled by their monergistic view of salvation. 15 But the Lord said to Ananias, Go! . Is that leader with a criminal record hitting on your young teen? Hey Sam you may be interested in how Jews interpret the Mashiach (messiah) passages. It came swiftly and with great effect. And of course JLindell can know that MD has NOT repented and sought reconciliation with those he threatened with breaking their nose, and then expelled and shunned. Come on Lindell, Morris, Kellogg and Johnston. He was defended and protected by his peers and they even tried to help him plant a church here and give it street cred but his family of churches franchise is over for him and he is lucky if 50 people show (mostly SGM followers and family) up for his church in a room at the Marriot not far from where I live. What do you think, Albuquerque? I strongly recommend the brief article by Jon Zens at Searching Together entitled Going to the Root Mark Driscoll and the Celebrity System. You have no idea how freeing it has been not to be shamed into believing the best groupthink of celebs when in fact, patterns, polity, hierarchical doctrines and associations should have given us pause all along. If so associating with Driscoll they can get the thug part down. And equally astonishing is that other Christian leaders support his abusive style or at least overlook it. I also have recently spoken to another ministry leader involved in orphan care in Africa. Unfortunately I dont see loose associations of Christ followers functioning in my locale but I continually find more dones, those done with institutional church. "Homosexual sin is not the only serious sin. But we dont know yet for sure. Also, there is a difference, IMO, between forgiveness and trust restoration. Lindell reused the Robert Morris line of chiding his congregation to stop shooting the wounded. Did you miss a tithe payment? This was a new song to me. Albuquerque Blue reminded me of something about mark driscoll during the fall. They wear what they believe are trendy shirts typically untucked to cover the middle aged spread with skinny jeans. His messages change in content, but not in root meaning. to confer grace through the sacraments. Certainly, or we are no better than he is. A group of followers dealing directly with each other and not with an institution sounds appealing. . James River Church, a multi-campus, 17,000-member megachurch in Missouri, is now fending off strong criticism from the public and health officials after pictures posted on social media showed what appear to be hundreds of unmasked people, practicing very little social distancing packed inside their Springfield location to participate in Christmas Imagine that. Good point as far as it goes. 4 Ways of Discerning If You Have Left Jesus Behind. I present to you James River church in Springfield Missouri this past weekend. I never thought of that but that certainly might be the case. Question: @netgrace was involved with Vineyard Duluth and did a great job. http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/christian-proof-texting/, from reading rob smiths post about the orphanage Agathos in Africa being defunded by Marks Hill church and marks telling missionaries not to work with them it is clear where Matt Chandler got the idea. He told me Tuesday that he has every right to campaign for repeal in a sermon. And Shifting the Blame. . This guy had his audience eating out of the palms of his hands. . Somebody cited a study that the most common characteristic of a Sociopath (well over 90%) was successfully Playing the Victim Card when caught. his heart is revealed by the countenance of his face. (I guess angles smile a lot) actually Jesus spoke to people He had healed early in His ministry and told them not to tell everyone, they did anyway and He spent the rest of His ministry having crowds pressing against Him and having to go hide sometimes. He was engaging, funny and gracious. And shame on these preachers at these churches giving MD a platform to relaunch his church-related career. (KY3) - OZARK, Mo. Like I said, I dont want to get into an argument here. 20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. Did he write (with $200k ResultSource juice job) a Best-Seller on His Humility (chuckle chuckle)? No I wouldnt allow someone who was an embezzler or criminal back in charge, of course not. Otherwise, its authentic shunning for you. He should not be making a buck off Jesus in any way, shape, or form, IMO. Pastors who give Mark Driscoll a platform are adding to the abuse of those of us who were abusively treated by Mars Hill Church. notable pastors have been pouring into his life. 1 point: homosexuality is a sin, according to the Bible, and Christians should vote for repeal. (This was all before the sex sermons and book.) I dont think theres been any repentance at all. What I did not know, was that Jamie Munson and Scott Thomas had called Marc Fulmer, who leads Agathos to this day, and threatened to pull support unless I resigned from Agathos and Mars Hill Church took it over and re-branded the ministry as a Mars Hill ministry. And of course, the author of Acts is writing more of a historical narrative so we dont get a lot of details. It was especially appropriate to hear last night since our current sermon series is on the topic of Worship. there is a scripture somewhere that says i wont speak against Gods annointed, which was david re saul i believe, and people have used this (or churches have used this to keep people quiet) as a reason to never say anything about church abuse. *carefully targeting pastors who want to build an empire of their own with an easy publicity stunt (although described Christian-like so it actually sounds noble, in both marketing and in the buying pastors self-talk), @ LT: When you add atmosphere teams to further manipulate peoples worship experience that is too much. If the congregation, the pew sitter as you say, cannot do it what does that leave? How can they do that? @ sam: Yes, thanks for this. John Lindell, pastor of James River Church, represents a new breed of reformed Assembly of God pastors yes Calvinism in the Assembly of God! or barred from the league for having too many technichal fouls for unsportsmanlike conduct and yelling at the referees for too many seasons. It was like my eyes were open. But that does not restore the trust in the relationship, and trust is the blood of good relationships. So glad for the folks that started the petition to dis-invite Driscoll, which I signed as well as for those in Australia who protested his abusive, un-Christian behavior toward others, including women. Jesus Church or 501(c)3 Religious business? I dont see him pastoring a church and I am not even sure his legal problems from the last one are over. i am going to get a can of alpha-wolf-away and spray out my apartment now. I knew I was being set up when I watched MDs embedded church video posted here at TWW. And how many know you cant not everything you read on the internet is true, and so as a church I just I just know this, as a church we want to be careful that we dont ever put ourself in a situation where were shooting the wounded, and you know God has laid Mark and Grace upon Debbie and my heart repeatedly over the last several months. @ Bridget: They stay in and around the very thing that ruined them in the first place. I recently had coffee with a staunch Mark Driscoll supporter who has chided any criticism of Mark Driscoll and strongly challenged me for every apparent infraction of the last year, yet at the same time vigorously excused or defended every one of Driscolls mistakes. The supporter said some awful things about me and Agathos, particularly its misuse of funds. Did Paul hire a company to buy his books and get them on the bestseller list? I have heard Driscoll in person.. What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. Youll see they have no standards regarding truth, salt of light. If you take his quotes about his economic policies in Cuba and substitute covenant or biblical Gospel he sounds about the same as the pastors we are discussing. Then the authentic community unravels like a cheap Walmart sweater. Then you can better understand the depths of this deception. http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm Mark was talking about Mark. I dont see how or why the Jerusalem church could have trusted him at that point, even though they might (or some of them might) have believed his vision and repentance were real. it is so sad it breaks my heart. They are not good for him, and he not good for the people he leads. The lack of regard for the masking ordinance and therefore its fellow community members by this venue and its occupants is not condoned by the CCHD, the agency said. I wish I knewits beyond comprehension. I'm not sure I find that expansion of "serious sin" cheating? James River Church(formerly, James River Assembly) is a Pentecostalmulti-sitemegachurchbased in Ozark, Missouri. Mark Driscoll has a lot of repenting to do and until he does that he should not be permitted to preach/speak at any church. He is young and using Jesus is all he knows. we dont need Mark Driscoll and his He-Man Woman-Hating Circus. Also, you dont want the sheep to get uppity. And later did sort of brag about how beneficial it was to him in his spiritual life. Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation). there is a scripture somewhere that says i wont speak against Gods annointed, which was david re saul i believe, and people have used this (or churches have used this to keep people quiet) as a reason to never say anything about church abuse. Pastor John Lindell mentioned that Mark and Grace founded Mars Hill Church eighteen years ago. You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting such a bully in the name of Jesus Christ. jesus example they put a robe on him a mockery of his kingship. Barnabus is described as a good man and full of the Holy Spirit. (stephen the shepherd? I began to see him as a marketing expert, who was producing what the young Reformed, technology driven market would respond to, and then marketing it in excellent ways. @ sam: Some great insights there, Bob. shuning is not always done professionally as in TVC but so often done whisperingly in churches but the effect is the same to the person shunned. . I asked where he got such information. What I saw was the 2 verses that I had typed on a 35 card and tacked to my bulletin board. @ Nancy: Is this similar to Radical Chic? starts with: there is a minor child involved that both of them love deeply. All the more reason that Driscoll appears arrogant and pompous to me and doesnt at all seem to understand the damage hes caused. I know the utter devastation that these cults can wreak on their members. . This guy has lists on his page in bulleted form: In his case, [Pauls] trust had to be earned, for obvious reasons. At a certain level they wanted leaderless teams who would function by consensus. Seems odd that Robert, Tom Lane and Jimmy Evans need to be pounding their book sales so hard when they are all getting raptured in the next 3.5 years. Forgive him? What a waste of a ministry! But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And I saw it. Its just that it isnt what a NT pastor of a group of Christians should be doing. Your comment is insightful and probably (for the AoG churches) right on the money. In October, he resigned as head pastor from Mars Hill, a Seattle megachurch with a Sunday attendance of 13,000. Mega-church Christianity with its rock bands, light shows, huge screens, and glitz reminds me more of Broadway than a church. 99,693 were here. If so associating with Driscoll they can get the thug part down. I cannot respect or support these men knowing that they revere such a man as a pastor. The text is not prescriptive. Their statements to Karen Hinkley and everyone else may be complete cynical BS to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, or at least those of their pewsitters. Pews are in the old megas. @wartwatch Not even the milk toast "We regret if anyone was offended"? However, we also see that David and Samuel were permitted to speak out publicly against Saul in truth. The James River Church Joplin Campus, located at 1850 S Maiden Ln, Joplin, MO 64801 now has a permanent location! The Lord had more to say about gall through His servant Jeremiah: Jeremiah 23:13-17 Remember how everyone always tells Muslims to denounce terrorism and extremism? You sure would think so, but to quote H.L. So this is kinda what we do So in Africa we partnered and we have an orphanage there that now has I think it is 32 kids and 140 people in Mars Hill give monthly to help support them. people have said to stay involved in churches to keep them encouraged to follow the Lord and speak up if they are going away towards money and corruption, that is no longer even possible, you can get shunned slandered and prob threats to your life for speaking up anymore. I dont think people that have fallen for false teachers are stupid, i think instead it reflects the degree of deceit in the false teachers and the seriousnes of the manipulations being used. he was chosen because the apostles couldnt be bothered by distributing food to widows) first martyr in church. I just do not understand this focus on hoping Christians leaders will actually and finally act like Christians when everything they have been involved with and built looks nothing like Jesus Christ. He sought out those that God sent Him to minister to in remote places away from crowds. Do you know his history and what he represents? Likewise, you cannot be or stay a pastor if you find out that you cant respect people. Personally I am not really all that interested in what the celebrites do as in endorsing, spinning events or behavior, etc. Did he have liveried Armorbearers blowing long trumpets before him to announce how HUMBLE(TM) he was (chuckle chuckle)? This has nothing to do with the recent downfall of Mark and demise of Mars Hill. An online petition calling for Mr Driscoll to be removed from Hillsong's conferences had attracted more than 3000 signatures prior toMr Houston's statement. ", Meanwhile, here's what was communicated 'Down Under' "Houston, we have a problem.". Churches are tax-exempt. Otherwise, quit calling those 40 pastors and all those victims liars. It is ok to ask for openess and transparancy. he smiles and there is love in his heart. Its just too lucrative of a franchise, you dont want to lose that. Im guessing Driscolls trying to resurrect his career by going into Charismatic type denominations or churches. In his introductory remarks, he spoke of Marks kindness, humility, and genuine interest in people. Christians have to be different than that. If so you may be onto something. He could continue the stance that we could not leave because we were under discipline and offend the large donor, or he could let us leave in peace and not offend the donor. How far can a pastor go in preaching the gospel when it comes to a political issue? CCHD has been in contact with the City of Ozark, where the venue is located and where there is a current masking ordinance in place. Che badgered/shamed the workers that receiving a pat on the back from their boss/comrade for increasing the quota should be enough for them to continue to increase production without any chance of being compensated for it monetarily. We need to be just absolutely rigorously adherent to things that we know work. I study a lot of the giant DFW megas but most of my data is still filtered through the Gateway lens. Wouldnt you encourage him to find another vocation? And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. I work with the Online Campus and part of that is getting to be involved in anything Online Campus related. in prison. they warm up to stone people like baseball players and lay their coats at the feet of saul to show he is the alpha. (I would have thought he was the lazy one who didnt want to get his hands dirty by actually doing anything but talking a lot), takes it from daniel where god becomes man, if you saw Jesus you would not likely see him as you expect. Rejection by churches or others in christian authority has actually resulted in the Lord comforting and building me up (in spite of my flaws) instead of causing me to doubt my salvation, He has used these things to show me how much He loves me, personally. According to the Pastor John Lindell, Driscoll has spoken there on three other occasions. As a follow-up (Sydney Morning Herald 1 July 2015), Hillsong conference shows interview with controversial US Pastor, Mark Driscoll see link Also, as Driscolls friend, John Piper, wrote: pastors are not professionals. It probably did. While a decreasing quota meant less pay. I still dont think he understands the harms he has done. They didnt fail. He wants to release you from that burden and bondage, they haven't asked for forgiveness? AFter the persecution and time in Antioch, Barnabus seems to make a decision on his own to go to Tarsus to find Paul. #driscollreturns paul most influential christian wrote most books this explains marks love of also writing books. What is the biblical prescription for sinning Elders? The Reformed Neo Cal world is going, Mark who?. @ LT: I suppose they could have been made up, although the accounts are supported by numerous descriptions of his pig like behavior. I am someone special, like Jesus and Paul. Of course but that is so remote given the environment I am not holding my breath. Same type of focus you describe without the healing stuff. What Im curious though is how the church (corporate) can self regulate against that in the face of the money and power, both spiritual and temporal, that types like MD help create. The name Che is a nickname, short for pig (chancho), for a reason. I guess Calvinism for these guys means never having to take personal responsibility. He told me he appreciated my column and my work at the News-Leader. Under the circumstances, Mark Driscoll needs a time out, huh? That got my attention as I was reading the comments yesterday evening. Three women have now blown the whistle on a program operated by the Ministry, including allegations they entered as independent people, however came out of the program as broken and suicidal. I am also pretty sure the accounts of his instrumental role in bringing Russian nuclear-armed ballistic missiles to Cuba to be used against the US were not purely fabricated, so I did not believe I was disseminating false information at the time I wrote that.